Carbine Questions: 45 LC vs. 44 Mag

[ESquared]

It's never too early to begin stalking your next Henry, and (today, anyway) I'm convinced I will some day own a Brass Henry. I've been advised (wisely so, I believe) that a Carbine version is easier to handle and carry. So, then it's off to Which Caliber?
In looking at the 44 Mag (H006R) alongside the 45 Long Colt (H006CR), the one thing that jumps out immediately is the drastic difference in twist rate of the two barrels.

Why does the 44 Mag have a twist rate of 1:38 and the 45LC's twist rate is 1:16?

Beyond that, is there an advantage for a reloader (which I'm slowly becoming) with one caliber over the other? This would just be a fun range gun, not a hunting rifle, so not looking for a grenade launcher. Just the fun of loading different recipes for accuracy and range fun. I may or may not even put a scope on it. Probably not (as of this evening), but a nice Skinner/Lyman globe set-up. So, 100 yds maximum.

Beyond those two questions, what else am I missing in this evaluation?

As always, thanks in advance!

[Steve51]

If you would happen to own a revolver in one of those calibers, that is the one I would recommend. A rifle / handgun combination can make an enjoyable range outing.

[ESquared]

If you would happen to own a revolver in one of those calibers, that is the one I would recommend. A rifle / handgun combination can make an enjoyable range outing.

I have tried a few, and could not warm up to any of them. So, it's a rifle-only consideration set.

[fortyshooter]

That's a good question on the rifling differences! I own both calibers in lever rifles and both the .45 and .44 seem to shoot really well regardless.
I'm finding my new .44 Henry is a VERY nice shooter ! Both the .44 and .45 are great calibers to reload at the level you feel comfort with.
I load .45 and .44 Mag at same 9-9.5 Unique powder level with 240-255 gr. bullets for general use.
Have you fired a nice Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 Mag?

[PT7]

Hey, ESquared,

Not very well-qualified to answer your Qs, but have a couple of thought re. caliber choice.

I cannot speak to the .44 Magnum...zip experience there. Same with reloading considerations.
And I don't have a Henry...yet...in .45LC. But from the recent months I've been shooting my Uberti .45LC Russian top break revolver, I have no doubt I would choose the .45LC Henry. And totally agree with the recommendation for the Carbine. I couldn't be more satisfied with my SGC.

The .45LC is simply a unique bullet to shoot. Out of the three revolver calibers I have/shoot, it is my favorite so far. And it would fully suit your planned use:

"...would just be a fun range gun, not a hunting rifle, so not looking for a grenade launcher. Just the fun of loading different recipes for accuracy and range fun....So, 100 yds maximum."

Like I said, not a substantive eval for you; just my preference for a very cool cartridge. It will be interesting to see which one your stalking brings home.

Take care.
Bob aka PT7

It's never too early to begin stalking your next Henry, and (today, anyway) I'm convinced I will some day own a Brass Henry. I've been advised (wisely so, I believe) that a Carbine version is easier to handle and carry. So, then it's off to Which Caliber?
In looking at the 44 Mag (H006R) alongside the 45 Long Colt (H006CR), the one thing that jumps out immediately is the drastic difference in twist rate of the two barrels.

Why does the 44 Mag have a twist rate of 1:38 and the 45LC's twist rate is 1:16?

Beyond that, is there an advantage for a reloader (which I'm slowly becoming) with one caliber over the other? This would just be a fun range gun, not a hunting rifle, so not looking for a grenade launcher. Just the fun of loading different recipes for accuracy and range fun. I may or may not even put a scope on it. Probably not (as of this evening), but a nice Skinner/Lyman globe set-up. So, 100 yds maximum.

Beyond those two questions, what else am I missing in this evaluation?

As always, thanks in advance!

[ESquared]

That's a good question on the rifling differences! I own both calibers in lever rifles and both the .45 and .44 seem to shoot really well regardless.
I'm finding my new .44 Henry is a VERY nice shooter ! Both the .44 and .45 are great calibers to reload at the level you feel comfort with.
I load .45 and .44 Mag at same 9-9.5 Unique powder level with 240-255 gr. bullets for general use.
Have you fired a nice Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 Mag?

Thanks, Fortyshooter, appreciate your perspective as an owner of both. From what I've researched, the 45LC is a "softer shooter" (recoil-wise), but I'm gathering that's because most 45LC factory ammo is not as stout as most 44Mag factory ammo due to the fact that there are lots of older, "less stout" 45LC firearms out there (at least that's what I've read). When reloading, I'm guessing you could make either one as gung-ho or as tame as you'd like...

Interesting that you're using Unique at the same weight on both. Assume the "kick" is about the same?

I'm about to test out Unique @9.5 gr on some 110grain 357 XTPs that I'm trying to turn into plinkers. Just starting out, but liking Unique so far.

No experience with Rugers other than an SP101 in 357 (2.25"), which was the last revolver I owned (and sold). Will look at eth Super Blackhawk, though, thanks for the tip!

[ESquared]

Hey, ESquared,

Not very well-qualified to answer your Qs, but have a couple of thought re. caliber choice.

I cannot speak to the .44 Magnum...zip experience there. Same with reloading considerations.
And I don't have a Henry...yet...in .45LC. But from the recent months I've been shooting my Uberti .45LC Russian top break revolver, I have no doubt I would choose the .45LC Henry. And totally agree with the recommendation for the Carbine. I couldn't be more satisfied with my SGC.

The .45LC is simply a unique bullet to shoot.

Thanks, B, appreciate your thoughts and endorsement. Not surprising, knowing how you've done with that Uberti. I'm kinda drawn to the "heritage" aspect of the 45LC, and this is a longer-term stalk, anyway.

Still scratching my head over the huge difference in twist rates when the projectiles are so similar...hope someone can help me out with that one.

[robert1408]

I'm considering a BBS Carbine in either 44 magnum or 45 colt. I am also wondering about the slow twist rate of Henry 44 lever guns. I do have a Henry Single Shot in 44 magnum and it's twist is 1:20". It's very accurate with most any bullet 240 grains and up. That slow twist in the 44 lever gun should favor lighter bullets.

[North Country Gal]

The why of the 1 in 38 twist rate in the 44 mag rifle barrels, instead of the 1 in 20 used in 44 mag pistols has been the subject of much speculation over the years. It all started when Ruger introduced the first 44 mag rifle in their 44 mag autoloader in 1961 and went with the 1 in 38. Marlin followed suit in 1969 with their new edition of the 1894 in 44 mag with its 1 in 38.

A slow twist rate, such as a 1 in 38, had been standard for 44 cal rifles, dating back to the black powder days. Some say that may have influenced Ruger's thinking. Rifles develop faster velocities than pistols, so some folks claim that going with a slower twist might reduce leading in a rifle. Others have said that 200 and 240 grain bullets have always been standard in 44 cal rifles and don't need a fast twist rate to stabilize at rifle velocities. For sure, no one was thinking in terms of those big 300 grain bullets in the 44 mag, back in the 60s. Whatever the reason, Ruger started it and many other manufacturers followed suit in their 44 mag rifles.

I've owned a few Marlin 1894s with their 1 in 38 twist over the years and they shot the 240 grain loads fine. Not great accuracy, mind you, but good enough for hunting purposes. These same rifles shot the big 300 grain bullets, okay, for up close work, but I could see a drop off in accuracy, (not to mention a big jump in recoil) out there at 100 yards. By comparison, shooting my TC Contender with its 14" barrel with a 1 in 20 twist, it makes the Marlins I used to shoot look bad in the accuracy department with any 44 mag bullet weight, but especially with those big 300 grainers. (By the way, it's not the weight of the bullet, it's the length of the bullet and the velocity used that determines stability and the twist needed.)

Back to the Henry. I notice that Henry uses the 1 in 20 on their new single shot. Rumor has it on other forums that Henry plans to go with the 1 in 20 on their other 44 mag rifles at some point, too. I would not take forum gossip to heart, though. Might be worth a call to Henry to get the real info.

[ESquared]

Thanks, NCG! I KNEW you'd have some historical perspective on twist rates, not to mention some "ballistical" analysis (that's probably not a word, but I like it!).
So my question remains, Why the different twist rate in the 45LC? And now another question, based on your comments above:

Does the faster twist rate in the 45LC equate to any more inherent accuracy in that cartridge out of the 16.5" barrel than the 44Mag (assuming identical bullet weights and/or powder charges)?

[North Country Gal]

In my experience with a late 90s vintage Marlin 1894 Cowboy in 45 Colt with its 1 in 38 twist rate (not the 1 in 16 as incorrectly advertised by Marlin) and ballard rifling, accuracy with standard 45 Colt loads was superb. So, no, I don't think that faster twist rate in the Henry will be much of an advantage with standard loads, as far as accuracy, but I doubt it would be a disadvantage, either. On the other hand, if you plan tp load the high velocity 300 grain, 45 Colt loads, it might be an advantage. Might also be an advantage for cowboy action shooting where you will be using the same loads in both rifle and revolver.

Remember, this whole twist rate thing is just one part of an overall equation for accuracy, not the entire equation. Then, too, guns can be very individual in nature and defy the norm. My advice on the Henry would be to ask others with that gun for their experience, rather than to try to figure things out based solely on the specs. Hopefully, we'll get some feedback from our Henry 45 Colt shooters.

[wingnut]

NGC-

Thanks for your above posts. Seems Ruger wised up for their 77/44. It has a 1:20 twist. I have a buddy pushing 400g cast thru 1 subsonicly.

[ESquared]

I can't see myself loading up 300 gr loads in a 45LC, but you never know, I guess. I hear you in terms of the "individual in nature" aspects of all of this. To me, that's another advantage of reloading: I can continue to tweak powders and projectiles (both types and weights) until I find the the magical combo my rifle "likes."

Big Al likes his 45LC Brass Carbine, but would love to hear from other owners (brass or otherwise)!

[Rifletom]

Can't speak on the .44 mag, but, I'll let you know about the .45 Colt very soon. My Henry is being delivered today to my local FFL. Heck, I'm already loading two different loads for it. 250gr rnfp from Missouri Bullets and 200gr rnfp from RedLine[discontinued, I believe].

[DAVIDF]

Thanks, NCG! I KNEW you'd have some historical perspective on twist rates, not to mention some "ballistical" analysis (that's probably not a word, but I like it!).
So my question remains, Why the different twist rate in the 45LC? And now another question, based on your comments above:

Does the faster twist rate in the 45LC equate to any more inherent accuracy in that cartridge out of the 16.5" barrel than the 44Mag (assuming identical bullet weights and/or powder charges)?

The shorter the barrel, the faster the twist rate should be for best accuracy. Of course, that is relative to the weight(length) of the bullet and the velocity of the loads that you want to use. Faster the velocity with a given bullet, the slower the twist needed and vice versa. For example short barreled ARs tend to come with faster twist rates, usually 1:7 or even faster.

I have a 20" barreled Big Boy in .44. It stabilizes 200gr & 240gr hard cast bullets at slow velocities quite well. One of my favorite very light plinking loads is a 240gr cast over 5.0 gr of Red Dot. The velocity out of the Big Boy is only 860fps, yet it is still quite accurate at 210 yards. At least as far as I can tell.

I have not tried heavier bullets out of the rifle. Some people have experienced poor accuracy with 44 bullets in a 1:38 twist barrel. Although, I have seen Hickok45 using 300gr cast (sized at .431) out of his Marlins with good accuracy at 100 yards.

I use cast sized at .432 out of the Big Boy as the barrel's groove diameter is .431. The proper size of the bullet is quite often more important that the barrel's twist rate for good accuracy.

If you are going to use heavier bullets, the 45 LC would be a safer choice with it's faster twist. I would probably go that way if I were buying one now as I would love to use some of the really heavy bullets available for 45 LC. If you are going to only use 250gr or thereabouts and lighter bullets, either will probably perform fine.

[ESquared]

Thanks, NCG! I KNEW you'd have some historical perspective on twist rates, not to mention some "ballistical" analysis (that's probably not a word, but I like it!).
So my question remains, Why the different twist rate in the 45LC? And now another question, based on your comments above:

Does the faster twist rate in the 45LC equate to any more inherent accuracy in that cartridge out of the 16.5" barrel than the 44Mag (assuming identical bullet weights and/or powder charges)?

The shorter the barrel, the faster the twist rate should be for best accuracy.

That's what has me stumped, as both of these rifles have the same barrel length, shoot about the same size projectiles (or they can), and yet the twist rates are drastically different.

Maybe I'm chasing the fog here, but it just struck me as odd...

[.45Steel]

If you would happen to own a revolver in one of those calibers, that is the one I would recommend. A rifle / handgun combination can make an enjoyable range outing.

Very good answer. I almost bought a Steel in .44 mag. I had it in my hands at the lgs when I spotted the .45 colt. and thought "That sure would be a nice companion for my Blackhawk 45colt/45acp convertible". No buyers remorse here. She shoots some pretty stiff loads that will keep right up with my friends .44 mag.

[ESquared]

Can't speak on the .44 mag, but, I'll let you know about the .45 Colt very soon. My Henry is being delivered today to my local FFL. Heck, I'm already loading two different loads for it. 250gr rnfp from Missouri Bullets and 200gr rnfp from RedLine[discontinued, I believe].

Look forward to hearing about your first impressions and seeing pics, not to mention your range reports for those two loads! COngrats in advance!

[DAVIDF]

Thanks, NCG! I KNEW you'd have some historical perspective on twist rates, not to mention some "ballistical" analysis (that's probably not a word, but I like it!).
So my question remains, Why the different twist rate in the 45LC? And now another question, based on your comments above:

Does the faster twist rate in the 45LC equate to any more inherent accuracy in that cartridge out of the 16.5" barrel than the 44Mag (assuming identical bullet weights and/or powder charges)?

The shorter the barrel, the faster the twist rate should be for best accuracy.

That's what has me stumped, as both of these rifles have the same barrel length, shoot about the same size projectiles (or they can), and yet the twist rates are drastically different.

Maybe I'm chasing the fog here, but it just struck me as odd...

Yep, always struck me as odd too! What I have also wondered, is why did SAAMI set a spec for the groove diameter to be at .431 for a .44 Mag rife and the groove diameter for a handgun chambered in the same cartridge at .429 (or .430 whichever it is)?

[ESquared]

Yep, always struck me as odd too! What I have also wondered, is why did SAAMI set a spec for the groove diameter to be at .431 for a .44 Mag rife and the groove diameter for a handgun chambered in the same cartridge at .429 (or .430 whichever it is)?

There's that head-scratcher, where the diameter is actually smaller than the commonly used "Caliber" and then there's 45LC, where the most common diameter of the boolit is .452, so slightly bigger than the "label."

That is right, isn't it? .452? Because I'm seeing .451 as well. Which is the right one for the Henry LC? Anybody know for sure, or does it matter?