Bond .357 derringer --- upper barrel shooting

[PT7]

Besides being off the Forum for a while, I haven't been very often to the shooting ranges either. Last time I was at the range with my derringer was in May, and I could easily tell today that I need even more range time!

So I got out to the MDC range at Parma Woods with my BondArms .357 magnum derringer. A mild, sunny day with light wind and temps in the low 70s. When I took my walk this morning, it was 59* --- a very welcomed relief from the recent days of upper 90s/low 100s with heat indexes at +110*!!

Shot 85 rounds at 7 yards; 65 rounds were either .38 Special or .38 Special + "P" and 20 rounds were .357 magnums. I'm only going to post three of my targets (30 rounds), because I need anyone's help/advice on shooting with the upper barrel. I'm not doing something right when aiming the upper barrel. I always shoot the lower barrel first, and my POIs are good. I then really concentrate on the upper barrel sighting, but maybe too much

Try to aim by making a minimal change to adjust for the higher barrel position. My POIs are just not on the bull that often. In these three targets, I only had one POI in the bull out of the upper barrel; others were all lower barrel. Anyone have any thoughts on how to better shoot this over/under derringer? I know there is a "connection" between sighting and which barrel I shoot...but I'm definitely missing something here.

OK, now for the story in pictures, with ammo and target descriptions.

Target #1 is a 2" splash bull on a 7-1/2" X 6" white cardboard. Ammo used --> my son's-in-law .38 special + "P" reloads.

DSCN2097.JPG (168.41 KiB) Viewed 2711 times

Targets # 2 and #3 are both 3" splash bulls on 8" white plates. Ammo used --> Target #2 is Winchester White Box .38 special 130gr FMJ. Target #3 is CT_Shooter's Zero 125gr JHP reloads. BTW, I shot my best today using CT's reloads. These are very good reloads!

Thanks for checking these out....and if any thoughts or suggestions, I'm all ears. Have a great weekend, Everyone.
PT7

Target #2

DSCN2095.JPG (138.65 KiB) Viewed 2711 times

Target #3

DSCN2096.JPG (167.43 KiB) Viewed 2711 times

[JEBar]

I've fired a 357 in a derringer and have to commend you for being willing to do so .. .. question, with a double barrel shotgun the barrels are designed for their loads to converge on a point so many feet down the line .... is that the case with a derringer or do the barrels send their bullets on parallel paths down range

[PT7]

Good question, JEBar. To be honest, I don't know the answer.

And secondly, I also didn't know that the bullets converged out of a double-barrel shotgun. Yup, learn something new all the time on our Forum.

[North Country Gal]

Pretty sure our own Texas Gun Runner has experience with one of these. Hopefully he'll be able to help.

My theory - and it is just a theory because I haven't shot one of these - is that the lower barrel is in a more direct line with your hand, so recoil is more directly straight back. This allows better recoil management and the gun is easier to shoot to your point of aim. Same reasoning for using a high grip on a revolver.

The upper barrel, though, is different. It sits higher on the gun relative to the action. The gun is likely pivoting more and bouncing around more in your hand during recoil. That erratic movement in the hand as the gun recoils really hurts accuracy. This is especially true with guns that have a round butt grip. Very easy for the gun to slip in your hand. My suggestion, as with all small guns, is to use a very firm grip, squeezing the gun with your left hand. Lock it down as best you can when shooting that top barrel. A thicker, fuller grip would also help.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Let us know how it works.

[JEBar]

Good question, JEBar. To be honest, I don't know the answer.

And secondly, I also didn't know that the bullets converged out of a double-barrel shotgun. Yup, learn something new all the time on our Forum.

I've been told that both over and unders, and side by sides are set to a point of convergence, usually 40 yards .... for coach guns the distance may be considerably less .... in short, this means that at 40 yards both barrels will hit exactly the same POI .... if and I do mean if that is true with a derringer, I can see how that could cause a problem

[JEBar]

if you could lock it down with a bench shooting vice, it would remove the human element .... that could speak volumes

[tx gunrunner]

Both my upper and lower barrel have the same POI . I always shoot the lower barrel 1st . It is just like a OU shotgun to keep the muzzle down for faster recover for the next shot . This is the only paper target I remembering shooting with the 357 mag with the 4.25 " barrel . Trigger control is the Bonds biggest problem and you need to learn how to master it .

[JEBar]

as already noted, I know nothing .. .. in doing some research, I ran across this link entitled "Bond Arms Derringer – Range Report & Factory Tour" ===> https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/bond-a ... er-review/ <=== it was published 4 years ago, I have no clue if Bond has made any changes since then .... the quote below was taken from the link :

"The Bond Arms derringer fired a variety of ammo without a glitch. Derringers are obviously close-in guns. Shooting offhand from seven yards, it was easy to put .45 Colt rounds into a 3-4” group for each barrel using the fixed front blade site and rear notch. However, the barrels shoot to different points of impact. At seven yards, the lower barrel grouped 2 ½ “ below point of aim while the upper barrel grouped 6” high. "

[PT7]

Will do your suggestion, NCG, on a firmer grip. I swapped out the original Rosewood grips since they were a little more slippery to keep a solid hold. I have what is basically a rubber Hogue Tamer on the derringer now. It helps a lot. I'll try to report back when I take this o/u to the range again. Thanks a bunch!

Pretty sure our own Texas Gun Runner has experience with one of these. Hopefully he'll be able to help.

My theory - and it is just a theory because I haven't shot one of these - is that the lower barrel is in a more direct line with your hand, so recoil is more directly straight back. This allows better recoil management and the gun is easier to shoot to your point of aim. Same reasoning for using a high grip on a revolver.

The upper barrel, though, is different. It sits higher on the gun relative to the action. The gun is likely pivoting more and bouncing around more in your hand during recoil. That erratic movement in the hand as the gun recoils really hurts accuracy. This is especially true with guns that have a round butt grip. Very easy for the gun to slip in your hand. My suggestion, as with all small guns, is to use a very firm grip, squeezing the gun with your left hand. Lock it down as best you can when shooting that top barrel. A thicker, fuller grip would also help.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Let us know how it works.

[PT7]

if you could lock it down with a bench shooting vice, it would remove the human element .... that could speak volumes

That's a good suggestion....I'll be checking with my son-in-law, or some friends, to find out who might have (and lend me) a bench shooting vice. I think it would be very helpful to see where the POIs are for the two barrels.

as already noted, I know nothing .. .. in doing some research, I ran across this link entitled "Bond Arms Derringer – Range Report & Factory Tour" ===> https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/bond-a ... er-review/ <=== it was published 4 years ago, I have no clue if Bond has made any changes since then .... the quote below was taken from the link :

"The Bond Arms derringer fired a variety of ammo without a glitch. Derringers are obviously close-in guns. Shooting offhand from seven yards, it was easy to put .45 Colt rounds into a 3-4” group for each barrel using the fixed front blade site and rear notch. However, the barrels shoot to different points of impact. At seven yards, the lower barrel grouped 2 ½ “ below point of aim while the upper barrel grouped 6” high. "

Thanks for pointing me to the article. I just read read through it....pretty good description and review of the BA derringers. And interesting to read your cut-out section that says "the barrels shoot to different POIs." With that info, I have a good defense that the targets I posted are good indicators of the nature of the gun, and not the ineptitude of the shooter!! Seriously, if that is accurate and the POIs land differently, that tells me I need to really peg those differences.

This article's publication date was after Bond Arms did a redesign of their derringer triggers and hammers, as reported on Gunblast.com -- http://www.gunblast.com/BondArms.htm. My first derringer had the older style trigger/hammer, and it was a bear to handle & shoot. Back in late 2012 I actually had BondArms retrofit my BASS model derringer. My newer BASSIV derringer (I purchased this one in November 2016) has the upgraded trigger/hammer. Much better to handle.

[PT7]

Very interesting, tx gunrunner, that your experience with upper/lower barrel POIs is 180 degrees from the article JEBar posted. Guess I really need to stabilize my derringer in a shooting bench vise and get to the nitty-gritty on these barrels.

Very cool that you have a six-inch barrel with your Bond. But I read that this is the first year Bond Arms has put out a barrel of that length, on a gun called the Texan. Is that what yours is? I wasn't able to see the engraved name "Texan" on your grip; still, you could have changed the grips. I'd really like to shoot one of the 6"-barrel derringers someday. Appreciate your comments...thanks.

Both my upper and lower barrel have the same POI . I always shoot the lower barrel 1st . It is just like a OU shotgun to keep the muzzle down for faster recover for the next shot . This is the only paper target I remembering shooting with the 357 mag with the 6" barrel . Trigger control is the Bonds biggest problem and you need to learn how to master it .

[tx gunrunner]

These are not target gun . Sold the stuff in top pic only have the stuff in lower pic .

P.S. I earlier said that was a 6" barrel on 357 . It is real a 4.25" barrel .

[tx gunrunner]

All Bond's trigger SUCK . The new designed trigger and hammer just SUCKS LESS . I found this is the best way to pull the trigger on any Bond . I hope this pic makes sense ......