Copper "Fouling": Two Schools Of Thought

[ditto1958]

I'm interested in opinions on caring for rifles that get copper in their bores. My three year old H009 30-30 is a beautiful rifle that shoots like a dream. It's also the only firearm I own that turns cleaning patches green.

There seem to be two ways people approach this. The first is "OMG, I have COPPER FOULING! " Fifteen people then respond with fifteen different products that are "the best" at removing copper from a rifle bore. Sleeping soundly at night is simply not an option until every bit of the copper is removed from the bore, and patches come out perfectly clean and white.

The other side of the debate? Some say that cleaning a rifle bore until patches are no longer green is not only not necessary and a complete waste of time, energy and cleaning products, but that it's also a bad thing. They say that over time, tiny amounts of copper fill in the tiny pores and crevices inside a rifle bore, and can actually serve to smooth out the bore and make it shoot better. Cleaning every last bit of copper out, just "un-does" this, so that it just has to happen all over again next time out at the range.

I guess my inclination is to not do anything different than I'm already doing. The gun shoots straight, so I don't want to try to fix something that's not broke. I clean my bore after shooting, sometimes with Ballistol and a bore snake, and other times with Hoppe's and patches.

[JEBar]

Some say that cleaning a rifle bore until patches are no longer green is not only not necessary and a complete waste of time, energy and cleaning products, but that it's also a bad thing. They say that over time, tiny amounts of copper fill in the tiny pores and crevices inside a rifle bore, and can actually serve to smooth out the bore and make it shoot better. Cleaning every last bit of copper out, just "un-does" this, so that it just has to happen all over again next time out at the range.

I'm more in the above camp .... as a disclaimer, that certainly doesn't mean its right ... so long as it puts the bullets where I want them to go and I look down the barrel and see it looks shiny/clean, I really don't get to excited about a green stain on a cleaning patch

[clovishound]

I certainly don't get overly excited about a squeaky clean bore, however, I did have this experience. A couple years ago I bought a Savage model 111 in .223. Shortly thereafter I bought a Boresnake and really liked the convenience. I got lazy and just ran the boresnake with CLP through the barrel a couple times after every session. After a while I started noticing one to two flyers per magazine. I concentrated on my technique, and things got worse.

I finally ran a brush down the bore and started getting lots and lots of copper out of it. I did a thorough cleaning with solvent and a brush. Accuracy improved dramatically. I now run a brush through it after every couple range trips. The Boresnake is relegated to a quick temp clean.

[PT7]

I've written before that I'm a "cleaning nut." But these two schools of thought noted some interesting things.

For quite a while, I mostly used bore snakes to clean my Henrys. I've now changed how I clean my barrels after I read an article commenting that bore snakes did not clean as well as they were advertised to do. I'm back to the "slower-paced" cleaning rod, patches and jags. The snake article also noted that a bore snake is effective right at the range for getting out some of the stuff even while the gun is still heated from shooting. I liked the description by clovishound of a "quick temp clean."

I certainly don't get overly excited about a squeaky clean bore, however, I did have this experience. A couple years ago I bought a Savage model 111 in .223. Shortly thereafter I bought a Boresnake and really liked the convenience. I got lazy and just ran the boresnake with CLP through the barrel a couple times after every session. After a while I started noticing one to two flyers per magazine. I concentrated on my technique, and things got worse.

I finally ran a brush down the bore and started getting lots and lots of copper out of it. I did a thorough cleaning with solvent and a brush. Accuracy improved dramatically. I now run a brush through it after every couple range trips. The Boresnake is relegated to a quick temp clean.

[bandit1250]

It may not be necessary to get your bore completely free of all traces of copper but I feel you better keep it under control and not let it get out of hand. I just went down that road with a friends rifle(25/06) that was 45 years old and I doubt that it ever had a strong copper remover used in it. I worked on it several times a day for three days with a very potent copper remover before the patches came out slightly gray and not green. Accuracy guys say that a barrel that fouls with copper can be cleaned squeaky clean and then start the break in procedure on it the same as you would a new barrel. Breaking in a barrel with the one shot and clean for maybe 10 rounds and then every three or four rounds for about maybe 20 rounds will drastically reduce copper fouling. It is said to be like seasoning a cast iron skillet that keeps things from sticking. It takes a little time but barrels I have broken in using this process clean up easier and have very little fouling. A rough bore can be the real problem with excessive copper build up and maybe need lapped to help. Also using bronze cleaning brushes with copper removers can give you a false reading on copper in the bore because you are dissolving your brush in your bore as you are cleaning. You should use a swab or synthetic brush with the strong copper solvents. There is many opinions on cleaning barrels but you can pretty well take it to the bank the big name bench rest shooters and match grade barrel makers know the right way to do it. Bore snakes just don't seem to be great at keeping up with bore cleaning other than a quickie at the range between different ammo. 22 rim fire seems to do better with bore snakes than the center fires. Guys who feel cleaning barrels is a joke usually are the ones that claim they shot their barrel out. I have bought some of these so called "shot out" rifles and got them clean and they went from poor shooters to some great shooters by getting them clean. It takes the average shooter a long time to shoot out a barrel. I really like the guys at the LGS's saying they shot the barrel out of their favorite 30-06 Remington pump. Really? I have shot out some varmint barrels with several trips to big dog towns in Montana that put a life time of shooting on a rifle in just a week or so but that was several thousand rounds each trip. If things are well with the way your rifles perform do what you are doing now but keep the copper in check and save your self some head aches. Talk about full of copper and this is just a few of the patches I used up.

[ditto1958]

Bandit, those patches are kind of artistic.

[RanchRoper]

Bandit, those patches are kind of artistic.

Like autumn in the Bizzaro World...

(google it....Superman comics )

[ditto1958]

Hrmph. I'm doing exactly what I resolved NOT to do, and that's to stew about this situation. Again, my H009 shoots straight. There's no reason to try to fix it if it ain't broke, right? Well, so I keep reminding myself.

Still, the other night I couldn't help it. I got the Henry out, which had been thoroughly cleaned until the patches came out white. I put some Hoppe's on a couple of patches and ran them down the bore. A little bit of black got on them, but nothing unexpected. Still, I had a hunch. I put a brush on my rod, and ran it up and down the bore a handful of times. I put some Hoppe's on a new patch, and it came out almost completely black, with a bit of green. Several more patches came out with quite a bit of green on them. Eventually, they came out white, and I put everything away.

I'm thinking this rifle must have a really rough, or porous bore. It must be just full of tiny crevices for copper and carbon to get stuck in. Pretty strange.

[bandit1250]

ditto1958, If you had no green on the patches until after you ran your brush through your bore if the Hoppe's has a copper remover you may be getting the green from the brush be dissolved by the copper remover. Using any solvent with a copper remover you should just use patches with the solvent or synthetic brushes to not get a false reading on having copper in the bore. If you have any copper in the bore and use a patch with the copper remover on it and let it stand for 15 minutes or so then run another patch through and you get green there is copper in it. If no green on the patch you are copper free.

[ditto1958]

ditto1958, If you had no green on the patches until after you ran your brush through your bore if the Hoppe's has a copper remover you may be getting the green from the brush be dissolved by the copper remover. Using any solvent with a copper remover you should just use patches with the solvent or synthetic brushes to not get a false reading on having copper in the bore. If you have any copper in the bore and use a patch with the copper remover on it and let it stand for 15 minutes or so then run another patch through and you get green there is copper in it. If no green on the patch you are copper free.

Hmmmm.... I think you may be right.

[1911ly]

I know this is an old thread but I just ran across it. Copper fouling is an issue that should be addressed and not fluffed off.

Copper builds up in layers over time. So it should be thoroughly removed, If you are even going to take the time to even do it, do it. do it thoroughly. My 22lr's haven't had much of an issue with it. But my high power stuff sure does experience it. My custom built 700 300wm's barrel cost more then most any of us paid for our Henry rifles. It gets check every 50-100 rounds because i want it to last and I want the best accuracy. It's got a match grade barrel that is a .001 tighter then a standard barrel.

I put a patch with copper solvent threw it, wait 7-8 minutes and push a path threw it. If it is a little blue then I push a few patched threw again and recheck, repeat until it's clean. the next morning I push a patch wet with #9 threw. If it is green or blue, we start over and repeat. One cleaning will get the 300wm clean most of the time. My 30-06 makes it to 300 rounds or so before copper is an issue. It will usually take 2 times. Some times 3 if I go to long between cleanings.

Then recheck it the next day if it comes out of the barrel blue or green one of 2 things are happening. The solvent is still in the barrel and working and you want it out, it's a corrosive agent in itself. Or there is still copper in there. Just deal with it and your barrel will last longer and your accuracy will hold longer.

Food for thought. Copper sticks to copper and lead sticks to copper. It all builds up. Periodically check your gun. It takes only a few minutes to do it. One bottle will last you and all your buddy's a life time.

YMMV. If I do something I tend to so it thoroughly and correctly no matter how long it takes. I might or might not have a touch of OCD...

[DWD445]

FWIW, I've mentioned in a couple threads that I have been using CFE Pistol power for a lot of my reloads. They also make CFE Rifle, if y'all don't know CFE stands for copper fouling eraser. It is a clean burning high power per amount powder. I like it!! My guns don't get much more than soot. Just a bit black when cleaning.

[JEBar]

CFE stands for copper fouling eraser .... most interesting info .... thanks for posting it

[RanchRoper]

95% of the time I shoot lead only. But American Eagle JSP's are cheaper, so I buy a box now and then. However I just shoot them in my revolver, so it's easier to keep an eye on the barrel and keep it clean. No copper in the Big Boy.

[BigAl52]

I use Bore Tech copper remover reccomended to me by a bench rest shooter. It works great. But I shoot coated lead bullets in my 45 colt and copper plated bullets in quite a few of my other guns. Al

[clovishound]

Well, I started cleaning the R Famage mauser I just got. I ran a brush and then some solvent soaked patches through it. Everything looked good after a couple dry patches. I got to thinking about this thread, so I ran some white patches through it. I have been using an old dark t shirt to make patches. Sure enough, the white patches came out very green. I have been cleaning it every day since. It's starting to diminish, but there appears to have been a lot of copper in this barrel. I'll clean it a couple more times before taking it back to the range. I'll be interested in how accurate this rifle will be.

[JEBar]

looking forward to hearing the results

[RanchRoper]

Ditto.

[bandit1250]

About the only way a barrel cleaned well to remove copper will shoot worse is if it is pitted or rough and the copper fills some of the bad spots. But as a rule the more copper build up the more the accuracy goes away. I am sure there may be rifles that shoot better with some copper in the barrel to fill the rough spots but I would bet that barrel is headed to the point of needing replaced if the owner is concerned about accuracy. I have also seen guys that were thinking they had copper issues that were actually dissolving their brush in the bore by using the copper remover on their bronze brushes. Don't try to get a reading on copper in the bore by dissolving your brush in the barrel. I run a couple patches through my rifles with engine tuner to remove powder fouling. Then wipe it clean. Then I run a white patch through with the copper cleaner and if it has green on it there is copper in the bore. Squeaky clean may not be a necessity but keeping the copper under control is. I believe the key word here is "under control". I have some very accurate center fire rifles and I do keep the copper in check and it seems to work better for me. YMMV

[clovishound]

Well, I made it to the range today. I ran eight of the factory Remington's through the mauser. The trigger was very noticeably smoother and perhaps a bit lighter. I remember feeling like it was a horrible trigger pull last time. This time, it was just a little bit of a hard pull, but broke cleanly enough. Fine for a hunting weapon. I did manage to figure out how to disassemble the bolt assembly. Easy once you know the secret handshake. Wasn't terribly dirty, but it was dry.

The first fouling shot was a bit of a flyer. The next three were a single elongated hole. I know this isn't a tack driver group at 25 yds, but it shows that this rifle is accurate enough for hunting. It is definitely more accurate than it was before cleaning it. Some reload development may help some a well.

It still kicks like a mule.

I'll be interested to see how much copper I get out of it after shooting 8 rounds through it.