Leverevolution Powder Questions

[Mr. Neutron]

Yeah, I found some CFE223 at our local BiMart store in Sandy as well Friday.

I guess the #3035s do seem to leave a bit more copper in the rifling than, say, Winchester Power Point factory loads. I'm not really as concerned about that as a bullet's terminal performance. If this is any sort of "barometer" of how these bullets perform (no firsthand field experience with these on deer), these 150 grainers get a pretty fair shake from here :

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowle ... 0+WCF.html

HANDLOADING

Hornady bullets include the 150 grain RN SP, the 160 grain FTX rubber tipped bullet now available to hand loaders and the 170 grain FN SP. The 150 grain Hornady is quite a reliable lighter medium game bullet, somewhat in between the Speer and Sierra with regards to its mechanical behavior. The 150 grain round nose produces clean kills, time after time on light game, with little fuss. The 170 grain Hornady is a bit ho hum, it has neither of the qualities of its competitors but for light bodied deer, is an adequate performer.

After this, this guy goes on to give the 170grn Nosler Partition good accolades. They seem to fall in the "temporarily unavailable" category last I looked, however.

[Rifletom]

I scored a couple pounds of Hodgdon's Leverevolution powder Monday from the local gun store in Sandy. My wife gave me a gift card for that place, so it worked out well. As a side note, they had quite a few bricks of pistol primers (Large & Small, Magnum and non-Magnum), along with a few bricks Small Rifle stuff. No Large Rifle stuff, but we can be hopeful, huh? Just nice to see more or ANY primers at all on the shelves. Hope this trend continues.

I'm wondering how many of y'all may have tried this powder along with Hornady's 170 grain FP (#3060), or 170 grain FP-style offerings from Speer, Nosler, Sierra, or other manufacturers? And can ya possibly let me know how accurate it was/is, and how much of this powder was stuffed in the case?

I have 3 older reloading manuals from Nosler, Hodgdon's, and Sierra. They're of the age that they don't even list Leverevolution powder. And the loads for my Winchester 748 & Hodgdon's H-335 have quite a bit of either "not listed for this bullet" or large variations of starting and max powder charges for these 2 powders.

I've found a load that shows promise with the 170 Hornady FP bullets and Win. 748 powder. I worked up to a charge of 33 grains that showed some promise in the accuracy dept.. I have around a dozen each of more cases loaded up to 33.5 gr. & 34 gr. to try out when some range time becomes available.

But as I said above, I came into this Leverevolution powder, and would like to try it. Bullet availability has kinda "stuck" me with Hornady bullets for now, which isn't a bad thing at all. I have had better luck with Sierra bullets in other rifles, but can't get ahold of any of their 30-30 bullets. Probably won't be able to for awhile. So, I have Hornady's free app on my phone. I then paid $.99 to get their reloading data for the .30-30. I had been looking on other forums for their recipes of LVR powder in .30-30, and it seems to vary a bit as to what folks use. So, I got the reload data from the folks that made my bullets.

And the amount of powder they stuff in a 30-30 case for their 170 gr. FP kinda surprised me. For Leverevolution, they begin with 27.7 grains of powder, and work up in 2.2 grain increments to 36.5 gr.. :s

For H-335, they begin 29.3 grains, and go up in around 1.6 gr. increments to 34 gr..

For Win. 748, they start with a charge of 31.4 grains, and go up in 1.7 gr. steps to 36.5 gr.. This is several grains higher than my my old manuals have listed for 170 gr. bullets, and a grain or two more up from some online sources like Nosler. The Hornady app, for the .30-30, states that their best test rifle (a Winchester M94 with a 20" barrel) accuracy and uniformity came from Win. 748 powder.

I'm not one to chase velocity figures. I'm after an accurate load first, and then hopefully with enough velocity to work a 170 grain bullet inside an Elk and do some damage. I've only killed just 3 elk in my hunting career, all with a .30-06. A spike walking by at 15 paces, a cow at 40 yards, and my biggest one in Hell's Canyon was at 125 yards. It was the only bull that never knew I was ANYWHERE around, and fell upside down, dead, almost instantly. It never ran. The other two elk (the spike and the cow) were spooked by other hunters or myself, took just a few steps after being shot, and died. So I figure those Sierra 180 grainers at around 2500 fps worked well.

I'm hoping a 170 grain Hornady lauched around a "theoretical" 2000 fps. would work well at the ranges I mentioned above; hopefully 75 yards or less. If I can gain more fps and still match the accuracy I have with my 33 grains of Win 748, I suppose that's "A Good Thing". Somewhere I've seen these bullets need to be moving at 2000 or so fps to work and expand well, but I'm confused as to if muzzle velocity was what they meant. If you calculate muzzle velocity and energy down to, say, 100 yrds., there's probably barely enough speed and energy to do the job on an elk. Dunno if it would expand much at downrange velocities of 1600 fps or not.

Not sure where my answer to this went, but, here goes. My favorite load for my 30-30 is Hornady 170gr FN, 34.0gr 748, mag primer and win cases.
Works well enough I stopped looking for other loads.

[Mr. Neutron]

My favorite load for my 30-30 is Hornady 170gr FN, 34.0gr 748, mag primer and win cases.
Works well enough I stopped looking for other loads.

Tom,

I don't blame ya for stopping right there as far as any further load development goes. That's a great load for 30-30s. I also have stopped looking for anything more accurate for my H009G steel receiver rifle.That gun likes that bullet and Win. 748 powder, but with 1 grain less powder. The 33 grs. of Win 748/Hdy. FN 170gr. bullet combo shoots as good as it gets in that rifle.

However, my new brass receiver H009BG seems to be a bit more accurate rifle, and further seems to prefer 150s. For some reason, that rifle groups better with a combo of 36.5 grains of LVR and a Hdy. 150gr. Round Nose bullet. It shot the Win. 748/170gr. bullet just kinda "okay", which kinda bummed me a bit at first. I wanted the new rifle to like the 170s/Win 748 combo. But the groups with the 150s were a decent amount tighter, and since I load for accuracy foremost, that's probably what the brass framed octagonal barrel gun will get.

IMG_0800.JPG (5.39 MiB) Viewed 2325 times

This group size was 1.7". I've never shot a better group with open sights at a hundred.


I'm curious tho...... Have you (or anyone else) ever recovered a 170 Hdy, FN from an animal you've shot? Did it expand well and such? I have no such experience on deer or elk with these bullets (or with a .30-30, for that matter). All my kills have come with a .30-06/Sierra bullet combo. But I've never recovered any of those bullets either. They always whizzed right through..... I guess "dead is dead", so it probably doesn't matter much.

[Vaquero]

Jimmie, I've hunted for ever, and have used a 30-30 on more deer than anything else probably.
I've yet to recover a 150 or a 170 grain bullet, as you stated about the -06. They just cut right through and out the opposite side.

RP

[Rifletom]

Jimmie, sorry for the late answer here. Our different loads just proves different rifles prefer different loads. Ballistics, huh?
Have never recovered a bullet using the 30-30 and only one from a 30-06. All others sailed right on thru. After recovering the one 150gr, I switched to Hornady 180 SP. Anchor! As I no longer hunt, I pretty much shoot my lever guns in the desert.

[Mags]

... Be anxious to hear how the CFE223 works out for copper buildup for ya. Isn't that a currently a "hard-to-get" powder??

So I finally got out to the range to try out the CFE223 powder loads in 30-30 (20 rounds). I think I was too optimistic about expected results. Reading about how CFE223 was supposed to vaporize the copper behind the bullet as it traveled down the barrel, I was sorta expecting to see little to no copper left behind. There is copper. Unfortunately I have no comparison with other powders to know if what I see is better, same or worse than what those other powders would do to minimize copper. Maybe my 30-30 loads don't burn hot enough for CFE223 to work effectively. I should give this a try in the LongRanger. Loads for that have higher pressure and burn hotter.

WIN_20230903_14_08_05_Pro.jpg (151.87 KiB) Viewed 2203 times

[Vaquero]

Well, how did they shoot??

RP

[Mr. Neutron]

Well, how did they shoot??

RP

Did you you shoot for groups, or just for "scientific research" to see if it actually did what has been claimed about reducing copper build up?

Back around June or July, I shot a 4-shot group of rounds with 36.5 grains of LVR and mixed cases. I managed to squeeze out a 1.7" group at 100 yards that day; another group was around 2.5". Wanting to shoot the same load again to see if I could duplicate it or improve it after my eye/cataract surgeries, I shot again last week.

Made it out to the range with some LEVERevolution reloads. Used all Winchester cases (because I seem to have more of them than other brands), Federal #215 primers, Hornady #3035 150 grn. RN bullets (because that's all I can source locally), and 36.6gr of LVR, and a batch of some with 37 grains of the same powder.

I shot 2 4-shot groups of each. Both charge levels grouped just under 2 inches for 3 shots, and then I would manage to send one flyer down to open the group up nicely. I seem to have a knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Or, maybe I just flinch consistently on shot #4 everytime......

One other guy in my gun club was there, and asked me if I wanted to shoot through his chronograph. At first I declined, but he kinda kept insisting, so I caved. I only had 4 reload rounds left with 36.5 grains of LVR, but sent 'em through the timer. The shots went 2320 fps, 2334, 2330, and 2329. I was happy with the consistency. Shows me a that a better shooter, or the gun with a scope, might group a bit better. For me, groups somewhere around 2-3" at 100 yds is plenty fine. I'd rather not pull the trigger if I can't hunt closer. It is, after all, called "Hunting", and not "Shooting"......

FWIW, the factory loaded Winchester 150 gr. Power Point ammo claims 2390 fps on the box, probably shot out of a 24" barrel. The guy's chrono had 3 of these averaging around 2250 fps out of my brass frame rifle (20" barrel), about 140 fps below the factory's claim. Evidently, size does sorta matter.

[Mags]

Well, how did they shoot??

RP

Did you you shoot for groups, or just for "scientific research" to see if it actually did what has been claimed about reducing copper build up?
....

I did attempt to shoot for groups. Did not do well. Mostly me I think. I did not take a shooting rest. Instead relied on my left arm/hand and elbow as a rest. Bad decision, very wobbly. Also the range lane I was using was setup for 100yd and 200yds. I was shooting 100yds for which my 1-6 Vortex scope isn't any good for. I could not see the POIs. But after found most where within a 4 inch circle.

A buddy I was with had a chronometer, which I shot a few rounds through at about 2010fps. Slow and to me, backs my thoughts about the loads not being hot enough to vaporize the copper. I was expecting between 2400 and 2500fps.

[Mr. Neutron]

A buddy I was with had a chronometer, which I shot a few rounds through at about 2010fps. Slow and to me, backs my thoughts about the loads not being hot enough to vaporize the copper. I was expecting between 2400 and 2500fps.

Yowza!!!! Not certain, but I’d have to think you’d have to load to a fairly high pressure level to get 2400+ fps?

[Mags]

Yowza!!!! Not certain, but I’d have to think you’d have to load to a fairly high pressure level to get 2400+ fps?

Looking back through my research notes, adding bullet lube to the Hornady #3035 might do it or switching to the Sierra 150gr FN. The Speer 150gr SPFN might be another option, load data goes up to 39.9gr for 2500fps out of a 20in barrel.

[Luv the lever]

I’ve been loading and shooting the barrel off my 357 and reading this just moved my 30-30 to the front. Been sticking with the same, 150’s and 3159 but now I’m considering a budget chrono and venturing into the LVR and trying 170’s and more.

How man6 rounds do you shoot groups of and how hot does your rifle get? This is the only rifle that I really need to work on to get the copper out also.

[Mags]

...
How man6 rounds do you shoot groups of and how hot does your rifle get? This is the only rifle that I really need to work on to get the copper out also.

5 shot groups. I use the Planet Optics target sheet with six 4 inch targets. My 30-30 has the octagon barrel. It gets uncomfortably hot when trying to hold onto the barrel, but doesn't cause a skin burn. The rifle holds 5 rounds in the mag tube so there a little barrel cooling happening while reloading between shot groups.

[Luv the lever]

...
How man6 rounds do you shoot groups of and how hot does your rifle get? This is the only rifle that I really need to work on to get the copper out also.

5 shot groups. I use the Planet Optics target sheet with six 4 inch targets. My 30-30 has the octagon barrel. It gets uncomfortably hot when trying to hold onto the barrel, but doesn't cause a skin burn. The rifle holds 5 rounds in the mag tube so there a little barrel cooling happening while reloading between shot groups.

Thanks, it seems to be hottest of my rifles in the shortest time. I too was shooting 5 round groups then leaving it to cool down but started shooting only 3 at a time. I have a standard round barrel steel with the side gate.

[Mr. Neutron]

Just took my brass framed .30-30 (20” octagonal barrel on this one) out to the range this afternoon. Also, after using one at my range a coupla weeks ago, I succumbed to something stupid and bought a cheap Caldwell Ballistic Precision chrono. It was $83 shipped from Amazon, so I don’t have a ton of $$$ into it.

Long story short, this 30-30 likes the Hornady #3035 150gr RN bullets over the 170 grainers I had hoped would group. Using 36.6 grains of LVR got me a decent group at 100 yds. a coupla months ago; somewhere around 1.70”. I could not duplicate that result again this afternoon with that charge, but managed to get very close with a 37 grain charge. Max charge for 150 grain bullets from Hodgdon is 38.5 grains, so I’m still at what I consider a safe charge level of LVR with 37 grains. And to me, getting a group under 2” @ 100 yds. with open sights is “okay to hunt with”. I’ve stepped out into the fall woods with worse in my younger days…..

FWIW, IF this chrono is somewhat accurate (it’s given me no reason to believe otherwise), my 4 shot group tonight netted 2400 fps average. Pretty good, but I try to chase accuracy first over speed. But the other info I got from it was encouraging to me.

The 4 shots were:
2403 fps
2403
2404
2390

The app you can download for this chrono gave it an average of 2400 fps. The extreme spread (fastest shot to slowest shot) was 14 fps. The “standard deviation” was 6.68. Now I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed here. And I know that one 4-shot group on a warm day isn’t always indicative of how things really are. Ya need more shots across the chrono to get gooder data. But I DO know that the lower the ES & SD values are, the better. It shows some uniformity/consistency with the loading. Which, if someone better was pulling the trigger and used a scope, might show that this load and rifle kinda has a bit of accuracy potential for a lever gun.

FWIW again, for those like me who are curious, Winchester factory loads (150 Power Points with the buck on the white box) advertise 2390 fps, probably out of a 24” barrel. It shot an average of 2275 fps from my rifle, with larger ES & SD values. And an inch+ larger group size over the hand loads. Haven’t shot any Hornady LEVERevolution 160 grainers or Federal blue boxes through the chrono, but have noted their points of impact is about where my hand loads are hittin ’.

[Vaquero]

Nice report Jimmie, I've always gotten good results with the Fed. blue box ammo,
in both 150 and 170 gr.
But I've also manged to get "slightly" better results with my own loads using IMR 3031.

RP

[Mr. Neutron]

Nice report Jimmie, I've always gotten good results with the Fed. blue box ammo,
in both 150 and 170 gr.
But I've also manged to get "slightly" better results with my own loads using IMR 3031.

RP

Thanks, Randy. Nothing is conclusive yet, as I haven't been able to fire what I consider enough rounds down range to get a true grasp of what's goin' on. But so far, the LVR is grouping slightly better than my Win. 748 powered loads, at least with the 150 grain Hornadys. Wish that more components (bullets, primers, & powders) were a bit cheaper and easier to come by, like they were in the 80s & 90s. The junk I have (again, primers, powders, & bullets) are just what I can drive 4-5 miles to, and buy off the shelf, mostly. I don't do much purchasing thru the mail, and just try to use what I can find locally. Really wish the local gun shop and local "sorta big box stores" could get more of a variety of bullets. I may have to call that law firm you posted about in the other thread, hee hee.....

And I've seen some pics of your groups with the IMR 3031 posted here. I envy them groups, Randy! "Slightly Better", huh? I'd hunt with those loads over most factory loads all season long! I also like the fact that your posts are WAAAY more concise than mine are.