.44 mag vs .45-70

[Redthies]

I have a 1895 GS also in .45-70. Loading your own is the fix with a 405 gr. hard cast lead over 14 gr. of Unique which shoots nice and pleasant but
still carries some punch!

That’s a similar load to HSMs cowboy round. I guess I’ll get a box and see what they are like.

[Redthies]

I'm with you on this - I think 45-70 is the go to cartridge for any bear - black or brown. I also think that SS Marlin is one of the toughest, most reliable and weather resistant ways to launch a 45-70 at a bear - sounds to me like you need to keep it....

This isn’t really helping me in my quest for a CCH Big Boy!

I’ve taken my Marlin ad down for now, and am looking at putting a better rear sight on it so I have the possibility of bringing the accuracy down into “minute of coffee can” at 50 yards from its present “minute of 45 gallon drum” state. Well, ok, maybe it’s not THAT bad, but it is not exactly an accurate gun as it sits. I find it hard to dial in something that I can’t shoot without some anticipation of impending recoil. (I’ve avoided calling it”flinching” in an effort to maintain a small semblance of manhood). Hopefully some cowboy loads will help with that, but of course the full-power rounds I would want for bears will most likely not land in the same place as the lighter loads. Which ironically brings me back full circle to the “is it better to actually be able to confidently hit something with a 240-280 grain projectile than to hope and pray with a 325-400 grain one” question...

[Redthies]

I may sell all my guns now, as the new mug Anthony sent me after an email exchange last week is heavy enough to probably take down a grizzly!!

[JEBar]

I may sell all my guns now, as the new mug Anthony sent me after an email exchange last week is heavy enough to probably take down a grizzly!!

we have 2 of them and couldn't agree more ..

[Mags]

.
Like JEBar, you better have two. One for backup. And plan C is to run really fast if you miss!

I may sell all my guns now, as the new mug Anthony sent me after an email exchange last week is heavy enough to probably take down a grizzly!!

[mrguvna]

load down the 45-70 and reduce the recoil. Still the stopping power of 405 gr of lead is immense no matter the velocity. If you elect for the 44 mag get a BBB with the octagon barrel, it weighs more and will have less recoil.

[Flinch]

There are other options for reduced recoil rounds for target shooting than the 405g loads. It's always best to fire a few shots of ammunition you are going to carry to hunt or protect yourself from varmints, but you can get a lot of practice in with lighter reloads.

I have a 300g lead reload that chronographs at 1066 fps and recoil is a lot lighter than one would think. I gave a recoil shy person the opportunity to shoot my Trapdoor with the light 300g load and he was pleasantly surprised.

[Morrow7x]

...Still the stopping power of 405 gr of lead is immense no matter the velocity...

New guy here, also puzzling over the 44mag vs 45/70 question.

Not to hijack with my first comment, but probably no need for a near duplicate post either. I think this dovetails into the OP...

Looking for a 'defensive' carbine for the camper. Can't shake the feeling that the dogs are going to come haulin' out of the aspens some day with something big on their tail, or I'm going to stumble into something on an evening walk. Been lucky so far that cats have been distant, bear have run, and moose have just stood and stared. FWIW, I'm not in grizzly country.

So the quote leads me to the question: Best large mammal stopper in an emergency, a zippy 240gr projectile or a 405gr loping along at cowboy load velocity...?

Thanks!

[BigAl52]

If those are my given choices and I do own both although my 44 mag is a handgun no question in my mind the 45-70 would be along side me. I have 2 both Henrys. The All Weather and the CCH. The AW sure does handle nice and you can load the 45-70 mild to wild you're choice.

[Mags]

.
Sounds like the Henry Big Boy 44mag/spl Carbine (H006R).

...New guy here, also puzzling over the 44mag vs 45/70 question... Looking for a 'defensive' carbine for the camper. ...

[North Country Gal]

[/quote] New guy here, also puzzling over the 44mag vs 45/70 question.

Not to hijack with my first comment, but probably no need for a near duplicate post either. I think this dovetails into the OP...

Looking for a 'defensive' carbine for the camper. Can't shake the feeling that the dogs are going to come haulin' out of the aspens some day with something big on their tail, or I'm going to stumble into something on an evening walk. Been lucky so far that cats have been distant, bear have run, and moose have just stood and stared. FWIW, I'm not in grizzly country.

So the quote leads me to the question: Best large mammal stopper in an emergency, a zippy 240gr projectile or a 405gr loping along at cowboy load velocity...?

Thanks![/quote]

At those distances, the loopy trajectory the 405 grain wouldn't be a factor, but for black bear, I'd opt for an expanding bullet design in the 300-350 grain range. I think these loads would be a better stopper on black bear than hard lead 405 grain loads. Lots of popular factory loads in the 300-350 grain range, too. Save the cowboy loads for your fun shooting.

[JEBar]

So the quote leads me to the question: Best large mammal stopper in an emergency, a zippy 240gr projectile or a 405gr loping along at cowboy load velocity...?

Thanks!

first, welcome to our community, delighted to have you join us .... we have both a Henry 45-70 and 44 Mag .... we also spend 6 months or more each year in our camper .... either one fired within the confines of a camper will almost certainly deafen all of those inside .... a bullet out of both has the distinct potential to pass through inside and/or outside walls and still travel a good ways with deadly power .... given proper bullet placement, both have the power to get the complete attention of cats, bear, and/or moose with the 45-70 coming out on top .... if carried on hikes, the weight additional weight of a 45-70 needs to be considered .... the 44 can be loaded with twice as many bullets .... we are currently spending the winter in Texas and both of ours are in our camper .... as far as purely a defensive firearm for a camper (or most anywhere else) is concerned, a 12 ga isn't a bad choice .... we also have one in our camper .... bottom line, the choice is a matter to personal preference and you can't make a bad choice with either Henry .... please keep us informed, I'm looking forward to following your selection process

[Morrow7x]

Ha! I wasn't clear enough- I'm thinking of something KEPT in the camper for emergencies around the campsite, not something to be SHOT inside the camper. Defensive for me is anti-large mammal, not anti-personnel . We have a Jumping Jack X4, you can't swing a cat in that little camper, and typically do not see other folks when we're set up for a few days.

But,not wanting to hijack with anything too specific to me- trying to build on the OP and the often asked recoil comparison question.

Obviously, if adding a hard-punching 45/70 load to the equation there isn't even a question, but figuring a hot 44mag and a cowboy 45/70 as the most 'perceived recoil approximate', wondering what conventional wisdom (or mathematics) says is the best stopper of the two...?

[Mags]

.
... and the sneaky stove...
http://henryrifleforums.com/viewtopic.p ... ole#p66819

.... given proper bullet placement, both have the power to get the complete attention of cats, bear, and/or moose ...

... Best large mammal stopper in an emergency, a zippy 240gr projectile or a 405gr loping along at cowboy load velocity...?
Thanks!

[Morrow7x]

That durned stove oughtta knowed better than to stand there!

[mrguvna]

For around camp I might suggest a Ruger Super black hawk strapped to your side. trying to run to the camper and unstrap a 44 mag or 4570 carbine is losing valuable time, plus losing sight of the threat. I would personally use a sidearm in that case, and a revolver as big as you can comfortably shoot. Sometimes a 44 mag full load is hard to shoot correctly in a pistol for some folks. A carbine would not be my first choice for camping protection.

[Redthies]

For around camp I might suggest a Ruger Super black hawk strapped to your side. trying to run to the camper and unstrap a 44 mag or 4570 carbine is losing valuable time, plus losing sight of the threat. A carbine would not be my first choice for camping protection.

In some states and provinces, handguns are not an option. I keep my carbine or shotgun at hand if I’m in that kind of country. No need to go running and unstrapping.

Morrow7x: don’t worry about a derail, you’re on topic here.

NCG: the lighter/faster expanding rounds are great, but why does almost every company that develops rounds for bear defence end up using heavy solid cast bullets? HSM, Buffalo Bore etc all seem to migrate to the big lumps of lead.

And to all the reloaded guys, thanks for the input, but I’m talking about commercially available cartridges as I don’t take my reloading gear on trips, and sometimes will need to replenish at a LGS or Cabelas etc. Off the shelf is the key for me.

[North Country Gal]

The hard cast bear loads are all about penetration and, yes, that is especially important with an animal the size of a griz. Black bears, though, are not a griz and a lot of us, up here in black bear country, find a 357 mag to be perfectly adequate as a carry gun for black bear defense. For sure, penetration should be more than adequate on a black bear when shooting a standard JSP or JHP in a 45-70, plus you'll get bullet expansion that you will not get with a hardcast lead round.

[Ojaileveraction]

Isn't the 45-70 already a 1/2 inch wider than a 44 magnum?
Only .05
Your right, I'm decimal point deficient at times.

[tractortad]

Ha! I wasn't clear enough- I'm thinking of something KEPT in the camper for emergencies around the campsite, not something to be SHOT inside the camper. Defensive for me is anti-large mammal, not anti-personnel . We have a Jumping Jack X4, you can't swing a cat in that little camper, and typically do not see other folks when we're set up for a few days.

But,not wanting to hijack with anything too specific to me- trying to build on the OP and the often asked recoil comparison question.

Obviously, if adding a hard-punching 45/70 load to the equation there isn't even a question, but figuring a hot 44mag and a cowboy 45/70 as the most 'perceived recoil approximate', wondering what conventional wisdom (or mathematics) says is the best stopper of the two...?

I think I'd opt for a Henry 44Mag BBS Carbine in your case - just like Mags suggested. It's a short, quick handling, powerful little rifle that would probably be easier to store in your camper than most 45-70's. 44Mag JHP should be able stop/scare anything that roams into your campsite (unless maybe you are camping on Kodiak Island).....