Weakening quickly....

[Mistered]

The Uberti simply has been around longer and parts are more readily available.

Actually Uberti and Miroku have been around about the same number of years - Uberti being established in 1959 and Miroku in 1960.
The big difference is Uberti was the development of Val Forgett of Navy Arms and Aldo Uberti to produce the reproduction 1851 Navy revolver and Miroku to produce some Browning firearms that were already in production such as the Citori O/U shotgun and the BL-22 lever action rifle.
Unfortunately Uberti did not have a lot of 'direction' in the early days (there were no 1851 firearms being built at the time) so they had to rely on probably a few originals and prints and drawings of originals to reproduce them whereas Miroku had the direction of Browning who was already producing 'modern' firearms. Also Miroku had the built in factor of higher startup technology and most likely better financial backing.
The early Uberti repros were sketchy with parts of varying quality and less than modern manufacturing techniques. Uberti was once described as a series of 'Hobbit houses with parts being donkey carted from one to the next for assembly' - and having lived in Italy for a year at one point in my life I can understand this.
Miroku on the other hand produced excellent Browning products from the start. I once owned an early BL-22 and the quality was incredible. Also an uncle had a couple early Citori shotguns that were equally as excellent.
This has all changed however as Uberti ultimately became what they are now with outstanding quality and reputation and I believe they are now owned by Benelli of shotgun fame.
Regardless my ONLY detractor is in buying a Mirouku is if in the rare instance I needed a part (or service) that might be a long time in coming due to the simple factory of distance.
One of the reasons I bought a Henry was due to the reported quality of service and quick availability of parts. Also with my 'older' Winchesters parts (new and used) are readily available and service is handled out in my shop.
Chances are however with the high quality of Miroku these concerns are probably unfounded and maybe I'll look in to the service/parts issues a little before I decide but in reality it's not as big of an issue as i am making of it and would not be a 'deal breaker'

[dddrees]

The Uberti simply has been around longer and parts are more readily available.

Actually Uberti and Miroku have been around about the same number of years - Uberti being established in 1959 and Miroku in 1960.
The big difference is Uberti was the development of Val Forgett of Navy Arms and Aldo Uberti to produce the reproduction 1851 Navy revolver and Miroku to produce some Browning firearms that were already in production such as the Citori O/U shotgun and the BL-22 lever action rifle.
Unfortunately Uberti did not have a lot of 'direction' in the early days (there were no 1851 firearms being built at the time) so they had to rely on probably a few originals and prints and drawings of originals to reproduce them whereas Miroku had the direction of Browning who was already producing 'modern' firearms. Also Miroku had the built in factor of higher startup technology and most likely better financial backing.
The early Uberti repros were sketchy with parts of varying quality and less than modern manufacturing techniques. Uberti was once described as a series of 'Hobbit houses with parts being donkey carted from one to the next for assembly'
Miroku on the other hand produced excellent Browning products from the start. I once owned an early BL-22 and the quality was incredible. Also an uncle had a couple early Citori shotguns that were equally as excellent.
This has all changed however as Uberti ultimately became what they are now with outstanding quality and reputation and I believe they are now owned by Benelli of shotgun fame.
Regardless my ONLY detractor is in buying a Mirouku is if in the rare instance I needed a part (or service) that might be a long time in coming due to the simple factory of distance.
One of the reasons I bought a Henry was due to the reported quality of service and quick availability of parts. Also with my 'older' Winchesters parts (new and used) are readily available and service is handled out in my shop.
Chances are however with the high quality of Miroku these concerns are probably unfounded and maybe I'll look in to the service/parts issues a little before I decide but in reality it's not as big of an issue as i am making of it and would not be a 'deal breaker'

Maybe I should have stated that diffrently or been more specific. Mirokus production of the 1866 and 1873's Winchesters didn't start until just a few years ago. So the Uberti 1866s and 1873s have been in production for much longer even decades from what I understand. Hence a major reason why more parts for the Ubertis would be available. Very important from what I understand considering the need for more parts for a gun for which you would use much more frequently like you would if competing in CAS. From what I have read out of the box the Miroku action is smoother but there again parts exist for modifying the Uberti where they may not for the Miroku. Anyway I don't think there are is a shortage per say of parts for the Miroku just that when using a gun to compete in CAS you may find a greater need to have more readily available parts vs a gun not used quite as much.

[dddrees]

The Uberti simply has been around longer and parts are more readily available.

Actually Uberti and Miroku have been around about the same number of years - Uberti being established in 1959 and Miroku in 1960.
The big difference is Uberti was the development of Val Forgett of Navy Arms and Aldo Uberti to produce the reproduction 1851 Navy revolver and Miroku to produce some Browning firearms that were already in production such as the Citori O/U shotgun and the BL-22 lever action rifle.
Unfortunately Uberti did not have a lot of 'direction' in the early days (there were no 1851 firearms being built at the time) so they had to rely on probably a few originals and prints and drawings of originals to reproduce them whereas Miroku had the direction of Browning who was already producing 'modern' firearms. Also Miroku had the built in factor of higher startup technology and most likely better financial backing.
The early Uberti repros were sketchy with parts of varying quality and less than modern manufacturing techniques. Uberti was once described as a series of 'Hobbit houses with parts being donkey carted from one to the next for assembly' - and having lived in Italy for a year at one point in my life I can understand this.
Miroku on the other hand produced excellent Browning products from the start. I once owned an early BL-22 and the quality was incredible. Also an uncle had a couple early Citori shotguns that were equally as excellent.
This has all changed however as Uberti ultimately became what they are now with outstanding quality and reputation and I believe they are now owned by Benelli of shotgun fame.
Regardless my ONLY detractor is in buying a Mirouku is if in the rare instance I needed a part (or service) that might be a long time in coming due to the simple factory of distance.
One of the reasons I bought a Henry was due to the reported quality of service and quick availability of parts. Also with my 'older' Winchesters parts (new and used) are readily available and service is handled out in my shop.
Chances are however with the high quality of Miroku these concerns are probably unfounded and maybe I'll look in to the service/parts issues a little before I decide but in reality it's not as big of an issue as i am making of it and would not be a 'deal breaker'

That's my understanding as well although from what I've read they do still use soft headed screws which can at times be very problematic to get out and their internals are not as refined as those guns made by Miroku and nor does it mean there isn't a greyish colored softer wood under that red varnish. There rifles or guns may work and these things may or may not matter to others but it does to me if given the opportunity to get something else. Where I can live with made in Japan and a bigger gap between the magizine and barrel and not as close to original the Miroku Winchester reproduction appeals to me more. I just think the diffrences at least for me were woth considering. Too bad they aren't discussed in detail more often.

Anyway I'm not trying to argue with you as to bring to light what I have discovered which may or may not help someone else with their decision or actually bring to light more interesting items on these various replicas or reproductions. Thanks for posting the information with regards to how Miroku and Uberti came to be. I may or may have not seen that before but I think it certainly was a great thing to mention.

[North Country Gal]

Excellent analysis of Miroku, Mistered. Well, done.

I've been around Miroku guns since Browning went with Miroku and phased out the FN, made in Belgium line. There was a little grumbling, at the time, from the Browning faithful about the made in Japan, thing, but gunsmiths I knew were quick to point out that the Miroku guns had better machining and were actually an improvement over the Belgium guns in terms of tolerances and construction quality. In short, the grumbling didn't last for long.

To this day, the only thing the Belgium made Brownings have that interests me can is that they had more hand fitting and hand engraving, but having owned both Belgium and Japanese made Brownings, such as the venerable Browning A-5 and SA-22, I can guarantee you that the Miroku versions shoot at least as good, if not better, than the old Belgium guns and are more durable, to boot.

Lastly, in my 50 plus years of owning guns of every type, brand and description, the ONLY brand of gun that I have never had to make a call to the manufacturer with a problem or a complaint is Miroku made guns, either from Winchester or Browning. To this day, Miroku made guns are the ONLY brand that I will order sight unseen and take my chances. I have yet to be burned.

[Mistered]

Parts for modification would not be a concern as I would only be using the rifle for my typical shooting endeavors - paper/plinking & hunting.
Having looked at both (Miroku and Uberti) I believe the Miroku to be slightly better - but this has been only from looking at two rifles so not really a fair comparison.
For me a lot of it is ‘psychological’ - the Miroku carries the Winchester name and technically their 1873 is not a reproduction in the formal sense of the word, but a ‘reintroduction’.
I suspect the Miroku Will probably hold its value better as well.

[North Country Gal]

That's a good point about reproduction versus a reintroduction. My Winchester 1885 Low Wall single shots by Miroku are not true 1885 reproductions, down to the last part. Miroku typically "modernizes" these old designs with more durable and efficient internal parts to aid in performance and durability, though action function and appearance stay true to the original.

[PT7]

Been following this thread regularly, and find the chat most interesting....especially learning more about the Japanese rifles. Also enjoyed the "Hobbit" analogy...can just see the wood cart poking along around the Shire!

The only comment I can make is about the Uberti screws. I have found the Uberti S/A revolvers are currently still produced with those pesky soft-headed screws. Would make me think the same quality level goes into their rifles.

...they do still use soft headed screws which can at times be very problematic to get out and their internals are not as refined as those guns made by Miroku...

I have no replica rifles, but on two of the three Uberti revolvers I have, I've chinked up side screws on two of them. I ordered a replacement trigger screw for my .357 Police, but uncertain about replacing it until I learn what happens to the trigger when this screw is pulled. Just don't want to "screw" it up, so plan to check with a gunsmith first.

Similarly, really created a sharp edge on a Stallion screw. But it unscrews easily, and I should just file it down.
No screw issues with my Russian .45 Colt. Screws remain tight, and think it's built like a tank.

Still awaiting the end result of the "weakening." I really cannot guess what the final rifle choice will be.
Suspense, suspense!
PT7

[dddrees]

Been following this thread regularly, and find the chat most interesting....especially learning more about the Japanese rifles. Also enjoyed the "Hobbit" analogy...can just see the wood cart poking along around the Shire!

The only comment I can make is about the Uberti screws. I have found the Uberti S/A revolvers are currently still produced with those pesky soft-headed screws. Would make me think the same quality level goes into their rifles.

...they do still use soft headed screws which can at times be very problematic to get out and their internals are not as refined as those guns made by Miroku...

I have no replica rifles, but on two of the three Uberti revolvers I have, I've chinked up side screws on two of them. I ordered a replacement trigger screw for my .357 Police, but uncertain about replacing it until I learn what happens to the trigger when this screw is pulled. Just don't want to "screw" it up, so plan to check with a gunsmith first.

Similarly, really created a sharp edge on a Stallion screw. But it unscrews easily, and I should just file it down.
No screw issues with my Russian .45 Colt. Screws remain tight, and think it's built like a tank.

Still awaiting the end result of the "weakening." I really cannot guess what the final rifle choice will be.
Suspense, suspense!
PT7

Although I like the way the Uberti SAs look and function more like the original Colts this among a few other things are the reasons why I've always decided to go Ruger instead. Little things like that I try to avoid when possible. Still continue to look at them however, because the next price range over the Ruger would be fairly big leap.

[Mistered]

I really cannot guess what the final rifle choice will be.

As from the beginning it will be the Miroku - Uberti was never a consideration.

but on two of the three Uberti revolvers I have, I've chinked up side screws on two of them.

I can’t speak for NEWER Italian repros but I have an older ASM (Armi San Marcos) 1851 Navy .36 and while the frame to barrel fit is excellent with pretty good machining overall the internals are horrible!
They are as soft as potmetal and I have since made a new trigger, cylinder ‘hand’ and a mainspring for it.
The other parts are wearing as well but I don’t shoot it much anymore.
Most consider the BP revolvers to be ‘limited use’ and I have seen some that are essentially worn out after only a couple thousand rounds.
I suspect the center fire guns are better but I have no idea as I do not own any. I have heard about ‘soft screws’ but in all fairness I have ‘buggered’ up screws on 70s era Smith & Wesson’s - and there is no denying the quality of this era for them.
It’s possible the screw problem may be due to improper screwdrivers being used to loosen/tighten them as opposed to them being soft or poor quality.

[Mistered]

Although I like the way the Uberti SAs look and function more like the original Colts this among a few other things are the reasons why I've always decided to go Ruger instead.

If an original or domestic made gun exists in the configuration I want I’ll try to go with it as opposed To something foreign made.
Excellent example is a Ruger SAs. While not technically ‘reproductions’ they are a renaissance of a traditional style of gun with major improvements made - kind of like Henry rifles.
While original 1873s exist (and some ‘shooter’ grades not terribly expensive - and I have been looking at some of them also)
For all practical purposes I will go with the Miroku for reasons previously stated.
And now I am getting the SA ‘bug ‘ again - from all the talk about them (owned several in the past - none currently) - so I may go hit my favorite pawn shop and see what they have In a good condition Ruger Blackhawk! Here I go again!!!

[North Country Gal]

From experience (and this is widely supported by the experience of others), be ever aware of screws loosening on Colt SAA reproductions or you may get home to clean your gun and discover it is missing some frame screws. Has happened to me, enough so that I remove frame screws one at a time on a new gun, then degrease and add a touch of loc-tite before putting them back in. No need for gorilla tight. Just make sure you use a proper fitting screwdriver. Also good at range time, to check for tightness before landing up and firing.

[dddrees]

Although I like the way the Uberti SAs look and function more like the original Colts this among a few other things are the reasons why I've always decided to go Ruger instead.

If an original or domestic made gun exists in the configuration I want I’ll try to go with it as opposed To something foreign made.
Excellent example is a Ruger SAs. While not technically ‘reproductions’ they are a renaissance of a traditional style of gun with major improvements made - kind of like Henry rifles.
While original 1873s exist (and some ‘shooter’ grades not terribly expensive - and I have been looking at some of them also)
For all practical purposes I will go with the Miroku for reasons previously stated.
And now I am getting the SA ‘bug ‘ again - from all the talk about them (owned several in the past - none currently) - so I may go hit my favorite pawn shop and see what they have In a good condition Ruger Blackhawk! Here I go again!!!

Customer support was one of my criteria and Ruger besides making what seems to be a solid product has really good customer support. Once when looking at a Uberti at my LGS I was told it might take up to 6 months to resolve any issues. I think if I ever were to go about getting a Uberti it would be through Taylor or Cimmeron where that might not be an issue.

I have a few Ruger SAs to include a Vaquero, Blackhawk, and few Single Sixes, Single Ten, and Bearcat. However if price were not an issue I mikght get one from Standard Manufacturing next.


Personally Domestic vs Foriegn is not as much a consideration to me as much as who makes the best product. I own a few things that the US simply doesn't have anyone in the US who simply doesn't do as well as manufactures from other Countries do. Frankly with some of these I don't think they ever have. If you make the item that appeals to me the most and you do the better job them you've earned my patronage or my hard earned dollar.

[Mistered]

Also good at range time, to check for tightness before landing up and firing.

Excellent advice - a few of my guns - including my Henry - have ‘pet’ screws that that loosen consistently with use.
I try to avoid Lock tite but will use it as a last resort. I dang near lost the SS cylinder latch screw out of my mod 60 Smith awhile back - and they are spendy!

[Mistered]

I stopped to look at the 1873 today and well............
I don't think it is a 'direction' I am going to go.
It was not the CCH Sporting Rifle but the plain Jane blued 24" model but regardless it just didn't have the 'feel' of my 26" Mod 94s, or my Henry for that matter.
I really like my receiver sights and other than a tang sight I cannot have a receiver sight on the Mod 73.
I will probably get a tang sight for my 1899 Mod 94 (as it's the only option for it) but that will be more of a 'traditional' setup and it will no doubt shoot well with it - but I still have my later 94's with receivers.
Hey, I largely in part have my levers set up the way I want and I 'know' them and how they shoot so I think I'll stick with what I have, appreciate them and shoot them all often.
Sorry for the 'letdown' but I have to be honest!

[ESquared]

These are not decisions to be taken lightly or made hastily, so good for you for pumping the brakes. We all know how hard it can be to walk away from something that's been haunting you for a while, but if you could just tell, then it wasn't meant to be.

Life is good.

[markiver54]

These are not decisions to be taken lightly or made hastily, so good for you for pumping the brakes. We all know how hard it can be to walk away from something that's been haunting you for a while, but if you could just tell, then it wasn't meant to be.

Life is good.

Amen...

[Ojaileveraction]

Thanks for sharing your decision process.
A lot of great information in this thread.

[BigAl52]

No let down here. Especially if the money spent isnt what you wanted to begin with. Been there done that and it ends up sitting or ultimately sold.

[Mags]

.
So from your experience should I delist the Stallion from my wish list?

Been following this thread regularly, and find the chat most interesting....especially learning more about the Japanese rifles. Also enjoyed the "Hobbit" analogy...can just see the wood cart poking along around the Shire!

The only comment I can make is about the Uberti screws. I have found the Uberti S/A revolvers are currently still produced with those pesky soft-headed screws. Would make me think the same quality level goes into their rifles.

...they do still use soft headed screws which can at times be very problematic to get out and their internals are not as refined as those guns made by Miroku...

I have no replica rifles, but on two of the three Uberti revolvers I have, I've chinked up side screws on two of them. I ordered a replacement trigger screw for my .357 Police, but uncertain about replacing it until I learn what happens to the trigger when this screw is pulled. Just don't want to "screw" it up, so plan to check with a gunsmith first.

Similarly, really created a sharp edge on a Stallion screw. But it unscrews easily, and I should just file it down.
No screw issues with my Russian .45 Colt. Screws remain tight, and think it's built like a tank.

Still awaiting the end result of the "weakening." I really cannot guess what the final rifle choice will be.
Suspense, suspense!
PT7

[dddrees]

I stopped to look at the 1873 today and well............
I don't think it is a 'direction' I am going to go.
It was not the CCH Sporting Rifle but the plain Jane blued 24" model but regardless it just didn't have the 'feel' of my 26" Mod 94s, or my Henry for that matter.
I really like my receiver sights and other than a tang sight I cannot have an receiver sight on the Mod 73.
I will probably get a tang sight for my 1899 Mod 94 (as it's the only option for it) but that will be more of a 'traditional' setup and it will no doubt shoot well with it - but I still have my later 94's with receivers.
Hey, I largely in part have my levers set up the way I want and I 'know' them and how they shoot so I think I'll stick with what I have, appreciate them and shoot them all often.
Sorry for the 'letdown' but I have to be honest!

At least now you know. Half the fun of any hobby or interest that I have is figuring out what does and does not work for me. But getting it right is the most satisfying. Best of all avoiding any costly mistakes.